Reply to AJ


AJ, if some blogs would support comments, I would leave my opinion there and not add noise to the planet.

1) Censorship does not stop being censorship just because the people doing the censoring don't have the absolute power to censor the information everywhere and only block the information or opinion from the channels they can control. It can be called otherwise - editorial control, policy of political correctness, libel liability protection policy, Children-Safe Talk Initiative or Women Friendly Environment Collective. But at its heart it is still censorship of all official Debian-related channels of communication as the aim is to remove the objectionable content from all such channels.

2 and 3) Discriminating against jerks is also a discrimination against people or groups. Please do not get all DFSG-bendy on me here. DFSG is about use and distribution license of the software and not about the communication channels used to facilitate this process. I could actually counter you with a quote from the Social Contract that says that we will not hide problems. The discussion as such admits that some people consider sexism to be a problem in Debian (for example). Excluding sexist comments from Debian official channels will not make sexism magically disappear, it will be just hidden, swiped under the rag and said to sit quiet.

The only problem is that the community that is tired of such hushing is much larger then anticipated. There are people that think that men and women are different. We checked. I can't see anything bad in the example quoted on the planet so far. Yes, the depth of the discussion is weak - we can't be genius all the time, but I really fail to see who is insulted in there. Lesbians? Don't think so, they are compared to a threesome quite favorably. That is not a technical discussion about interrupt timings, but that's why it is in offtopic. Doh! Relaxed chit-chat like this is typical in all healthy and tight-knit communities. Is it offensive to women to talk about sex??? Grow up and have a good 3 hour chit-chat with some real women. Women talk about sex even more than men. Especially on-line.

Can someone really show what is the "OFFENDING BEHAVIOR" so obscene and dangerous that people want to censor out of Debian and explain what exactly they see as being so horribly bad to Debian that they see total censorship of all Debian communication channels as an acceptable countermeasure?

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Zoran Dzelajlija 12 years, 5 months ago

The messages quoted there and in the d-w thread that preceded the channel renamal ( were obtained by grepping for specific keywords (women, girl), taking selected lines, and probably do not represent the typical ongoing on the channel. In fact, the poster was notified that one chosen example was made by a known troll that was banned afterwards. After 2-3 years on #debian and #debian-offtopic on Freenode I don't see any specific accusations of sexism could be validated any more than accusations of other sorts of stupid behaviour.
One ought to do some quantification and compare the same grep over other channels, an offensive-lines ratio to see whether #d-o was significantly more offensive than other #d-* channels. This was not done.

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bignose 12 years, 5 months ago

> Censorship does not stop being censorship just because the people doing the censoring don’t have the absolute power to censor the information everywhere and only block the information or opinion from the channels they can control.

Wrong. That's exactly where the limit of censorship lies. If the discussion can easily be had in another forum, it *is not censorship*. To claim otherwise is to demean those who are victims of *actual* censorship.

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aigarius 12 years, 5 months ago

So, if you can talk about it under a blanket in your bedroom, it is not censorship anymore?

Please discriminate between common censorship and total censorship. Oh and read about what 'censor' was in Rome.

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garaged 12 years, 5 months ago

The one thing I see wrong on that comment is (I have know Damog for years cybernetically, not personally) that he is not saying that the channel is about jokes, and everybody is joking, he is actually validating the attitude, and saying that is correct to be rude with people and even encouraged by the unofficialness of the #channel.

I'm pretty sure that he does not actually belive anything in those comments, and his whole blog about it, but the fact that he tries to make people belive all is true makes me think that he really likes to annoy people and enjoys the protection of the cyberspace to do it.

He has done that for years, but he has a social life, I'm pretty sure he is not like that in person.

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